《洞察投資者播客》於 2025 年 5 月 20 日專訪大衛·盧瑟福：海豹突擊隊心態——擁抱恐懼
Welcome to the insightful investor podcast, a weekly series that seeks to share industry, investment and market insights. Learn more about our show at insightfulinvestor.org. [MUSIC] We have a very special guest today. David Rutherford is a former Navy SEAL, a SEAL instructor and a CIA contractor. David is now an award-winning podcast host. Highly respect the performance coach and the founder of the Frog logic Institute, which offers programs to help individuals and teams overcome adversity, embrace fear, build self-confidence, and develop a strong sense of purpose. We're going to dive into deep into all these topics and explore how investors can draw valuable lessons from David's unique experience and insights. He also serves as a trainer with first trust, which is how we became acquainted. Welcome, David. Thank you, Alex. It's a privilege to be with you. Let's go back to your early SEAL days. What inspired you to become a Navy SEAL and eventually an instructor?
歡迎收聽《洞察投資者播客》，這是一個每週系列節目，旨在分享行業、投資與市場洞見。更多節目資訊請瀏覽 insightfulinvestor.org。[音樂] 今天我們邀請到一位非常特別的來賓。大衛·盧瑟福是前海豹突擊隊隊員、海豹教官及中情局承包商。如今，大衛是獲獎播客主持人、備受尊敬的表現教練，以及「蛙邏輯學院」創辦人。該學院提供課程協助個人與團隊克服逆境、擁抱恐懼、建立自信，並培養強烈的目標感。我們將深入探討這些主題，並研究投資者如何從大衛獨特的經歷與見解中汲取寶貴經驗。他同時擔任 First Trust 的培訓師，這也是我們相識的契機。歡迎你，大衛。謝謝，亞歷克斯。很榮幸參與節目。讓我們回溯你早期的海豹生涯。是什麼激勵你成為海豹突擊隊員，最終成為教官？
My story, I think, is common amongst young men that was kind of distant franchise with what had taken place collegiate for myself. I'd always dreamed to play D1 football that didn't happen. I ended up playing D1 lacrosse with some brand illusion that I was going to be able to walk on a football team where I was a Penn State where I was playing. It just wasn't in the cards for me. I wasn't dialed in with what my performance thresholds actually were. I'd created this long running illusion that I had all the attributes to play at that highest level. It just wasn't true. I didn't handle that. I didn't have any substantial foundation of how to pull myself out of that kind of strong sense of fear and failure.
我的故事，我想，在年輕男性中很常見，那是一種與我大學時期經歷有些疏離的狀態。我一直夢想著能打 D1 美式足球，但這並未實現。最終我打了 D1 長曲棍球，還抱持著某種不切實際的幻想，以為自己能在賓州州立大學——也就是我當時就讀的學校——以 walk-on 方式加入美式足球隊。但這根本不在命運的藍圖裡。我當時完全沒認清自己真正的實力水平。我長期沉浸在自己擁有所有條件能在最高層級比賽的幻想中。但事實並非如此。我無法面對這個現實。當時我完全沒有扎實的心理基礎來幫助自己擺脫那種強烈的恐懼與失敗感。
It was just a random, not random, but a guy who lived next door to me my freshman year. Tony Gronsky, from Scrant PA, who was in the Army Reserves. He had given me a book about seals my freshman year, read it, read it, cover it, and then in my fourth year I really was pretty substantial, quite buyer of not only emotional instability, but also of ambition. When I sat down and made the decision, what am I going to do with my life, the Navy seals came to the forefront of my consciousness. And I was like, yeah, that's what I'll do. I'll join the Navy, the Navy seal, and everything will be just fine.
這其實並非偶然，而是我大一那年住在隔壁的傢伙。來自賓州斯克兰頓的 Tony Gronsky，他是陸軍預備役。大一時他給了我一本關於海豹部隊的書，我讀了又讀，翻到封面都爛了。到了大四那年，我不僅情緒相當不穩定，野心也異常膨脹。當我坐下來思考人生方向時，海豹部隊突然躍入我的腦海。我就想，對，這就是我要的。我要加入海軍，成為海豹隊員，然後一切都會沒問題的。
So that was the pretense of the decision. Is there anything you can share about the training regimen at the seal at a high level? Yeah, I mean, I think there's been so many incredible books written about it. There's so many programs that outline it. And there's a lot of documentaries, but I think the biggest thing is the level with which you've got to be prepared to be measured. We live in a world today where, you know, I think there's a strong group of the population that is trying to reduce that type of meritocracy. And for us, that was, that's the key.
這就是我做決定的前提。關於海豹部隊的訓練制度，你能從宏觀角度分享些什麼嗎？當然，我想已經有太多精彩的書籍記載過，也有許多節目詳細介紹，還有不少紀錄片。但我認為最關鍵的是，你必須做好被嚴格評量的心理準備。當今社會有相當一部分人試圖削弱這種精英考核制度，但對我們而言，這正是核心所在。
And I think for all organizations, businesses, teams, you know, the greater the ability to articulate measurement, the better the program for development can be. And I think, you know, ours has been in development for 80 plus years. I mean, that's really the magic behind it. A lot of people don't realize, you know, our program. I mean, from when I first showed up in November 1995, so where I left the teams in June of '03, there were people doing research on the program. And conducting research, and we were asking different people to help us, you know, cultivate and develop and enhance and reassess. I mean, it's just one of those, you know, the deeper I think an organization can go into the metrics of training in an applicable way, right, not just nonsensical measuring, which, you know, can demolish the psyche, but really integrated ideas behind what the training hopes to achieve the objectives and then the metrics by which the individuals evaluated. When those are really connected and really symbiotic, then what it can produce is as pretty remarkable. What do you think it takes to succeed as a seal? And I asked that because I assume everyone is physically fit.
我認為，對於所有組織、企業和團隊來說，能夠清楚闡述衡量標準的能力越強，發展計畫就能越完善。你知道嗎，我們的計畫已經發展了 80 多年。這背後真正的魔力就在於此。很多人並不了解我們的計畫。從我 1995 年 11 月首次加入，到 2003 年 6 月離開團隊期間，一直有人在研究這個計畫。我們進行研究，並邀請不同的人協助我們培育、發展、強化並重新評估。這就像是一個組織若能深入探討訓練指標的實際應用方式——不是無意義的測量（那可能會摧毀心理狀態），而是真正整合訓練希望達成的目標背後的理念，以及個人評估的指標。當這些真正相互連結且共生時，產生的成果就會相當驚人。你認為要成為一名海豹突擊隊員需要什麼條件？我這樣問是因為我假設每個人的體能都已經達標。
So is the mental strength that separates the ones who survive? What really left out to me was it's more about pain management than anything. There was a time and probably 2013, 14, where I spent about two years really trying to understand fear and how it controls us. You know, when you look at the formula behind grading a seal, creating a green beret, creating a marsawk marine, and a sock eye, it's about the application of pain. And for me, it was really the difference between the individual that can recalibrate that pain. So it's positive versus a consistent and perpetual presence of negative pain.
那麼，是心理強度區分出存活者嗎？真正讓我印象深刻的是，這更多是關於疼痛管理而非其他。有一段時間，大概在 2013、14 年左右，我花了約兩年時間真正試圖理解恐懼以及它如何控制我們。你知道，當你審視評級海豹突擊隊員、打造綠扁帽特種兵、塑造偵察陸戰隊員和狙擊手的公式時，關鍵在於對疼痛的應用。對我來說，真正的區別在於個體能否重新校準那種疼痛。也就是說，是積極的疼痛對比持續且永恆存在的負面疼痛。
And it's really that's where the psychology comes in. How do I flip this around and recognize that the more focused pain I can apply or I can allow being applied, the greater sense of humility opens you up to a more rapid assimilation of the information. And that's the key. It's the so many. So within all of us, there's this resistance and the resistance is, you know, pain, the interpretation of pain, that mixes with fear, fear, you know, triggers a lack of self-confidence, and then the unwillingness to assimilate into the overall team structure which delivers purpose. So yeah, I think it's, you still have to be willing to run the miles and dive the dives and swim the swim and get up when you're, you know, your knees are swollen and your back is killing you and, you know, you're bleeding from your, your pits and your neck because you spend the previous day like 10 hours covered in sand all over your body. So you still have, there is a physicality, but it's about the switch upstairs for sure. Well, you've developed deep expertise and some of the topics you've alluded to fear, resilience, teamwork, self-confidence, purpose, adaptability, as you've gone into went through that experience as a Navy seal.
而這正是心理學發揮作用的地方。我該如何扭轉這種心態，並意識到當我能施加或允許施加更多專注的痛苦時，越強烈的謙卑感會讓你更快地吸收資訊。這才是關鍵。這種情況實在太多了。在我們每個人內心都存在這種抗拒，而抗拒就是痛苦，對痛苦的解讀，它與恐懼交織在一起，恐懼會引發自信心的缺乏，進而不願意融入能賦予使命感的整體團隊結構中。所以沒錯，我認為，你仍然必須願意跑完那些里程、潛完那些潛水、游完那些泳程，即使膝蓋腫脹、背部疼痛難耐，甚至因為前一天全身沾滿沙子長達 10 小時，導致腋下和脖子都在流血，也要爬起來繼續。因此，身體上的磨練確實存在，但更重要的是頭腦中的那個開關。 您已發展出深厚的專業知識，並觸及了一些主題，如恐懼、韌性、團隊合作、自信、目標、適應力，這些都是您在經歷海豹突擊隊訓練時所體會的。
Today what I'd like to do is explore how these powerful concepts translate to investing business and broader life performance. Let's start with one of the most powerful forces we all face that you talked about as fear. Do you feel fear is hard-wired in us or can it be managed so it doesn't paralyze us or lead to poor decisions? That's the ultimate question. You know, it took me a while. When I was developing the frog logic concepts, you know, it all originated with self-confidence because that would seem to be the thing in Buds every day that I had to rehabilitate because you know, you might have the best day in the world and then the next day you do everything wrong and you know, the instructors are screaming and hammered you're like, what happened? You know, I thought I was dialed in and then just like that.
今天，我想探討這些強大的概念如何轉化為投資、商業及更廣泛的生活表現。讓我們從您談到的最強大的力量之一——恐懼開始。您認為恐懼是我們與生俱來的，還是可以管理它，使其不會癱瘓我們或導致糟糕的決策？這是終極問題。您知道，這花了我一些時間。當我在發展「蛙邏輯」概念時，一切都源自於自信，因為這似乎是每天在訓練中我必須重建的東西，因為您可能有一天表現得非常好，然後第二天一切都做錯了，教官們在尖叫和打擊您，您會想，發生了什麼事？我以為我已經掌握了訣竅，然後突然間就變了樣。
It's over and flipped and now you have to rehabilitate that. So that's where I started and then when I finally left working for the agency after four years in 2011 was my last year. I was deploying and then in 2012 when I first started professionally speaking at a corporate level was in the financial services industry and the number one question I would get was, you know, were you afraid and you know, I used to answer with kind of these, you know, these snapperhead responses because it's such an intimate question right? Someone's asking you, you know, were you afraid and you know, I think if you're from our generation you are kind of conditioned where you know, you know, exposed those weaknesses to a per se but as the time went on, I began to realize that that was one of the most consistent questions and so I wanted to understand and and so I spent about two years really trying to understand fear and yes we are hardwired for there's no doubt, you know, our limbic system pretty much works around fear. I mean, there's an argument that, you know, it also has a major contribution towards, you know, the other joy and a sense of relation and those types of emotions as well too but I think the governing aspect of our limbic system is how we process that which we are afraid of and yeah so when you look at, you know, just the nature of stress hormones and you look at the way you're a meddolic response, a triggers, you look at the way your hippocampus works and you're medduling, you know, all these look really core natural indicators that provoked fear and then you've got, you know, the hardwired for a couple years ago, some really bright gentleman out of MIT discovered that there's a dedicated circuit in your brain for snakes, right? And so, you know, out of the what 80 to 90 billion neurons you have and if one's dedicated, man there's a reason why and so you have to think about that natural antelot anthropological challenge that we faced when, you know, we were tribal in nature, we were just kind of nomadic and following the food, you know, what was going to kill you and that was everything. So it's sharpened our vision, it sharpened our taste, the sharpened our, you know, our reflexes and so yeah it's undoubtable that, you know, we are certainly wired and then the other one is, you know, we're I think, you know, the very nature of society and it's not just Western society, I think it's even a more provocative over in societies that are, are third world because, you know, you live with fear every single day, whether it's political instability, economic instability or tribal instability, you know, I think that fear is is a profound sense of governance for most, anybody that's going to try and influence someone else and give them the best lessons learned, those lessons are usually a derivative of traumatic experience and so we're taught fear are whole lives as well too and in fact, you know, that's what you do for living is you help manage fear on a regular basis and, you know, I'd say over the last, you know, last year I think I was in front of somewhere around 40 to 100 advisors, you know, 30 different states and, you know, the overwhelming consensus was people were afraid, the volatility of our political endeavors, the volatility, the social structures of our country and then, you know, just the kinetic nature of the markets right now are just, I think always causing that fear to be triggered in a way that it requires a very dedicated way to manage that. So yeah, we're wired for it, we're taught it and it's probably out of the eight core motions, I believe it's the most substantial one that you have to learn how to, you can't defeat fear, there's no such thing as fear less. I mean, I've found a couple studies, the most common one I use is the movie solo, the ox hornal story where he free soloed half dome, you know, and there's this great scene in the movie for me, it was small, but I was relevant. We're in falling off the face and the goes in, and he gets a cat scan and what they realize is that there's very reduced blood flow to his amygdala's.
一切都結束了，局面也翻轉了，現在你必須重新調整。這就是我開始的地方，然後當我在 2011 年，也就是我在該機構工作的最後一年，四年後終於離開時，我開始部署。到了 2012 年，當我第一次在金融服務業的企業層級進行專業演講時，最常被問到的問題就是：「你當時害怕嗎？」你知道嗎，我過去會用一些有點尖銳的回答來回應，因為這是一個非常私人的問題，對吧？有人問你：「你害怕嗎？」我想如果你來自我們這一代，你可能會被某種程度地制約，認為暴露那些弱點本身就是一種問題。但隨著時間的推移，我開始意識到這是最常被問到的問題之一，所以我想要理解它。因此，我花了大概兩年的時間真正試圖理解恐懼。是的，我們天生就會恐懼，這毫無疑問，你知道，我們的邊緣系統基本上就是圍繞著恐懼運作的。 我的意思是，有人主張說，它對於其他喜悅、歸屬感這類情緒也有重大貢獻，但我認為邊緣系統的主導功能在於我們如何處理恐懼的事物。當你觀察壓力荷爾蒙的本質、代謝反應的觸發機制、海馬迴的運作方式，這些都是引發恐懼的核心生理指標。幾年前，麻省理工學院有位非常聰明的學者發現，大腦中有專門處理蛇類的神經迴路——想想看，在人類擁有 800 到 900 億個神經元的情況下，居然有專屬的線路，這絕對有其演化意義。這讓我們必須思考原始人類面臨的生存挑戰，當時我們處於部落型態，過著游牧生活追逐食物來源，所有事物都可能致命。 所以它磨銳了我們的視野，磨銳了我們的品味，也磨銳了我們的，你知道的，我們的反應能力，因此毫無疑問地，我們確實被這樣塑造，而另一個因素是，我認為，社會的本質就是如此，這不僅僅是西方社會，我覺得在第三世界社會中這一點甚至更為突出，因為，你知道的，你每天都與恐懼共存，無論是政治不穩定、經濟不穩定還是部族不穩定，我認為恐懼對大多數人來說是一種深層的治理感，任何試圖影響他人並傳授最佳經驗教訓的人，那些教訓通常源自創傷性經歷，所以我們一生中也被教導恐懼，事實上，你知道的，這就是你的謀生之道，你經常幫助管理恐懼，而且，你知道的，我想在過去一年裡，我大概面對了 40 到 100 位顧問，你知道的，來自 30 個不同的州，壓倒性的共識是人們感到害怕，我們政治努力的波動性，我們國家社會結構的波動性，還有，你知道的，當前市場的動態本質，我認為這些總是以某種方式觸發那種恐懼，需要非常專注的方法來管理它。 所以沒錯，我們天生如此，也被這樣教導，而在這八種核心情緒中，我認為恐懼是最重要的一種，你必須學會與之共處，你無法戰勝恐懼，所謂的無懼根本不存在。我找到幾項研究，最常引用的是電影《赤手登峰》中霍諾德徒手攀登半圓頂的故事，對我來說，電影中有個小卻意義深遠的場景——當他差點墜崖後去做了腦部掃描，結果發現他的杏仁核血流明顯減少。
And what they believe is, and they touched on it just briefly, he said, well, my mother was on the scale and never once, told me, she loved me, she didn't give me physical affection and then my dad had asked burgers and he did the same, never gave me hogs, never gave me anything. And so, you know, that's what the theory was, I think in his mind was that was the auspice behind his desire to put himself in that space where fear is so substantially palpable that he feels something. Right? And so, you know, that's one anecdote, but I've read enough, seen enough, and instructed people enough in high risk training that will, to recognize it is a substantial aspect of whether or not we succeed or not.
他們相信的是，而且他們稍微提到了這一點，他說，嗯，我媽媽總是站在秤上，從來沒有一次告訴過我她愛我，她沒有給我身體上的親密接觸，然後我爸爸只關心漢堡，他也一樣，從來沒有給我擁抱，從來沒有給我任何東西。所以，你知道，這就是那個理論，我想在他心裡，這就是他渴望將自己置於那種恐懼如此明顯的空間背後的原因，這樣他才能感受到一些東西。對吧？所以，你知道，這只是一個小故事，但我讀得夠多，看得夠多，也在高風險訓練中指導過足夠多的人，以至於我認識到這是否成功的一個重要方面。
From an investor standpoint, I feel like it's an investor's constant companion. Absolutely. There's not only fear of loss and fear of the unknown, but there's also fear of missing out on the upside. You know, so it's, I feel like it's always there. Well, we saw it recently with the whole tear of thing, right? I mean, I remember I was out in Colorado with some whole sailors and, you know, the markets were plummeting and everybody's freaking out and, you know, I had just a done a show recently with a Bryce Gill, one of our economists, and was like, "Okay, listen, the economy's strong. We're strong. You know, on Shorings coming back, which is, you know, there's a $7 trillion commitment from overseas investment. And the idea of regenerating a strong industrialized nation, I mean, that could be revolutionary for our country. And so, you know, a little bit of pain now for long-term gain is substantial. But again, when you're talking about people's life savings, they're hard work, they're blood, they're sweat, and they're literal tears. You know, that's a very emotional thing. And it generates a lot of fear. When you see your network drop 45, 46% over and I eat, you know, it's, it's troubling for people. What is your process for embracing fear? And what key steps do you recommend for turning fear into a tool for better decision making as you alluded to earlier? Fear is an interesting one, you know, because it does take a process. You know, first and foremost, when I develop frog logic now, it's a very sequential program.
從投資者的角度來看，我覺得恐懼就像是投資者如影隨形的夥伴。確實如此。不僅有對虧損的恐懼、對未知的恐懼，還有害怕錯過上漲機會的恐懼。你知道嗎，所以我覺得它總是如影隨形。我們最近在整個市場動盪中就見識到了，對吧？我的意思是，我記得當時我在科羅拉多州和一些海軍同袍在一起，市場正在暴跌，每個人都驚慌失措。而我最近才剛和我們的經濟學家布萊斯·吉爾做過一檔節目，當時我就說：「聽著，經濟基本面很強勁。我們很強韌。你知道的，岸上產業正在復甦，海外投資有 7 兆美元的承諾資金。重建一個強大的工業化國家這個構想，對我們國家來說可能是革命性的。所以，你知道，現在忍受一點短期痛苦換取長期收益是非常值得的。」但話又說回來，當你談論的是人們一生的積蓄，那是他們辛苦工作、血汗與淚水的結晶。這是非常情緒化的事情，自然會引發強烈的恐懼感。 當你看到你的資產淨值下跌 45%、46%，你知道的，這對人們來說是很困擾的。你面對恐懼的過程是什麼？正如你之前提到的，你建議將恐懼轉化為更好決策工具的關鍵步驟是什麼？恐懼是個有趣的東西，你知道的，因為它確實需要一個過程。首先，當我現在發展「蛙式邏輯」時，這是一個非常循序漸進的計畫。
I believe one thing has to happen to get to another to get to another, to get to another, and so that sequence is first, you learn to embrace your fear. Then once you got your fear a little dialed, and then you have to perpetually learn how to rehabilitate yourself confident. So it's forging that confidence to be able to take the beating every day. Then once your self confidence is dialed, and now you're ready to pick the right team to be a part of because nobody does it alone, and you have to dial in your team orientation, how that works. And then once you're on the right team, that's where your purpose will emerge. When you have that collective mission in mind, and you're going after that ambition, that's it. So, you know, fear is a five step process. First and foremost, you have to search for the truth of your fear. You have to really become, become, to understand it. And like step one of this is, you know, and I give these, you know, these seminars on it, and step one is, you know, right down everything you've ever been afraid of when you are kid, you know, now and in the future.
我相信一件事必須先發生，才能接著引發下一件事，如此環環相扣。這個序列首先是學會擁抱你的恐懼。一旦你稍微掌控了恐懼，接著就必須持續學習如何重建自信。這是在鍛造那種能夠每天承受打擊的自信。當你的自信心建立起來後，現在你準備好選擇正確的團隊加入，因為沒有人能獨自完成一切，你必須調整團隊合作的方式。一旦你加入對的團隊，你的目標就會浮現。當你心中懷有共同的使命，並朝著那個抱負前進，就是這樣。所以，恐懼是一個五步驟的過程。首先，你必須尋找恐懼的真相。你必須真正去理解它。第一步是，我在研討會上會提到，第一步是寫下你從小到大、現在以及未來曾經害怕過的所有事情。
And I asked this question, how many people in the room have done this? And I think I've given this talk, you know, four times in the last two months, and out of the eight talks I give, and, you know, every single time, there's not a single person in the room to raise their hand. But yet, everybody's highly educated, everybody's successful, everybody manages fear every day with their clients, but they just have not done this exercise. It's fascinating to me as the fact that the industry is so analytical and, you know, Jim Bowen always loves to, you know, say the math doesn't lie, right? And so what's the math of your fear? And I think people just don't spend a lot of time. So, you know, first discover what you're actually afraid of, how it presents itself, how it affects you, all those ideas. And then the one that really I think is pivotal is you go to the people that are really, your closest to and you describe some of this behavior and say, hey, do you see this in me? And when you see this in me, how do I act? How do you deal with it?
我問了這個問題：在場有多少人做過這件事？我想我過去兩個月已經講過四次這個演講，在我總共八場的演講中，每次都沒有人舉手。但明明在場每個人都受過高等教育、都很成功，每天都要面對客戶處理恐懼，卻從來沒做過這個練習。讓我覺得很有趣的是，這個產業明明如此重視分析，就像吉姆·鮑文常說的「數字不會說謊」，對吧？那麼你的恐懼數字是什麼？我認為人們只是不願意花時間。首先，你要找出自己真正害怕的是什麼、它如何表現出來、如何影響你，這些都要搞清楚。而我覺得最關鍵的一步是：去找你最親近的人，向他們描述這些行為表現，然後問：「你們有在我身上看到這些嗎？當你們看到時，我是怎麼反應的？你們會怎麼應對？」
And they will give you, if you ask them those, you know, those hard-y any questions, if they truly love you, they will give you the honest answers. And that sort of solidifies it for people saying, wow, this is something that is very much present in my life. And I think for everybody, the level of controls a little bit different, but I think it's there and it's seen and then when someone confirms it for you, it makes it real. The second part of this is to accept the reality of your fear. And that's really to get to a little scientific on it.
如果你向他們提出那些尖銳的問題，而他們真心愛你，他們會給你誠實的答案。這會讓人們更加確信，哇，這確實是我生活中非常真實的一部分。我認為對每個人來說，控制的程度可能略有不同，但它確實存在且能被察覺。當有人為你證實這一點時，它就會變得真實。這部分的第二點是要接受你恐懼的現實。這其實有點科學的成分在裡面。
The recognize, you know, I have people go investigate first and foremost, it's like, hey, just recognize that it's not new, right? Human beings have essentially been experiencing some form of your fear forever, right? For as long as we've had consciousness, right? That first revelatory awakening within that first human being, you know, to say, oh, well, I'm conscious and then yourself consciousness emerges and then you're afraid, right? What's going to kill me?
首先，我讓人們去認識到這一點，嘿，你要明白這並不是新鮮事，對吧？人類從古至今基本上都在經歷某種形式的恐懼，對吧？自從我們有了意識以來，對吧？在那第一個覺醒的人類心中，當他意識到「哦，我有意識了」，然後自我意識浮現，隨之而來的就是恐懼，對吧？什麼會殺死我？
I think, you know, that aspect of of recognizing, you're not alone in your fear, go read the DSM5, you'll see some of these other things. There's a million websites that do personality tests or analysis. And obviously, they all have, I think, some positive attributes in it, but the biggest thing is to really do the work individually, right, to evaluate yourself in a, you know, some type of measured process where you can get down to the understanding that this is how I operate, this is how I do. And then what it becomes is like, all right, what is going to be the purpose, the exact purpose within my fear, what aspect of my fear specifically am I going to dress? Right? And then the third aspect is to retrain your brain. Now, a lot of people are like, what, what, how does that mean? How do I retrain my brain? Well, I'm just like, you're hardwired, right? 100%, but what people don't, what they don't recognize is the massive influence for the different types of cultural influence that we've, we've been susceptible to, right?
我認為，你知道的，在認知到「你並非獨自面對恐懼」這方面，去翻翻 DSM5 吧，你會看到其他相關內容。網路上有無數提供人格測驗或分析的網站。當然，我覺得它們都具備某些正面價值，但最重要的是要真正靠自己下功夫，對吧？透過某種可量化的流程來評估自己，最終理解到「這就是我的運作模式，這就是我的處事方式」。接著問題就變成：好吧，在我的恐懼中，具體要解決的目標是什麼？我究竟要面對恐懼中的哪個面向？然後第三個層面就是重新訓練你的大腦。現在很多人會問：什麼？這什麼意思？我要怎麼重新訓練大腦？其實就像這樣——你的確有既定模式，百分之百沒錯，但人們往往沒意識到，我們長期受到各種文化影響所帶來的巨大衝擊，對吧？
From two to ten, you're indoctrinated into this anthropological culture, which is how you're, you know, your family's great, great, great, great, great grandfather was raised in what he passed down, and what he passed down, and now we understand that's a lot of that, the aspects of that genetic makeup is down on the molecular level, right? It's integrated into our DNA. And so that's the real hardwiring. But then, you know, starting at a very early age, we're introduced to these sociological ideas as well, too, all the different teams you're on, the different schools you go to, the different classes, you're in all of those little sociological imprints make a difference, too, and depending on what types of groups that you allow yourself to be, you know, collectively programmed in can also be a very distinguished kind of mapping system for, you know, what your fear is going to look like. And so, all right, how do we begin to retrain our brains? And, you know, for me, the ultimate retraining came in hell week. You know, when you look at this year, just data on how we can human beings shouldn't do this, right?
從兩歲到十歲，你被灌輸進這種人類學文化中，也就是說，你知道的，你家族的高祖父、曾祖父、祖父是如何被養育的，以及他們傳承下來的東西，而現在我們明白，那其中很大一部分，那些基因組成的面向是深入到分子層面的，對吧？它已經融入我們的 DNA 裡了。所以那才是真正的硬體連線。但接著，你知道，從很小的時候開始，我們也被介紹了這些社會學的概念，你參加的所有不同團隊、就讀的不同學校、參與的不同班級，所有那些小小的社會學印記也都會造成影響，而且根據你讓自己身處哪種類型的群體，你知道，集體性地被程式化也可能成為一種非常獨特的映射系統，用來呈現你的恐懼會是什麼樣子。那麼，好吧，我們該如何開始重新訓練我們的大腦呢？而對我來說，最終的重新訓練發生在地獄週。你知道，當你看著這一年的數據，光是關於人類不該這樣做的數據，對吧？
It's not healthy to stay up for 96 straight hours while you're getting pummeled by a 300 pound boat on your head and freezing cold water for extended periods of time. I mean, just in that week alone, we run somewhere around 200 miles, right? And, you know, we're burning 69,000 calories a day. The rough estimates is it takes somewhere between three and five years off your life, right? And so, you're going to go into that's the impact on it. And now, but what happens is all of your pre-existing self-imposed limitations that are a derivative of those two types of influence, you're in their biological and the sociological influences culturally, those essentially either get press pause or people can then really rewrite their coding in that week.
連續 96 小時不睡覺，同時還得承受 300 磅重的船隻不斷撞擊頭部，以及長時間浸泡在冰冷海水裡，這對健康絕對有害。光是那一週，我們大概跑了 200 英里左右，你知道嗎？我們每天要消耗 69,000 卡路里。粗略估計，這會讓人折壽 3 到 5 年。這就是它帶來的影響。但有趣的是，你原本那些自我設限的觀念——那些源自生物與社會文化雙重影響的制約——在那週要不就是被按下暫停鍵，要不就是人們真的能重新改寫自己的內在程式。
And then out of that, now, the sudden you're like, oh, wow, there's nothing I can't do. There's nothing I can't endure, right? There's no level of pain that's going to compete on my ability to achieve that, which I desire most, that that ambition, right? So, you know, I think then it's retrain your brain, then you've got to test yourself. Testing is something that people post maybe college and maybe some testing that exists within, you know, climbing the corporate ladder, I think, or whatever, but it's very demeniveness, right?
然後突然之間，你就會覺得，哇，沒有什麼是我做不到的。沒有什麼是我無法忍受的，對吧？沒有任何程度的痛苦能與我達成最渴望目標的能力相抗衡，那份野心，對吧？所以，你知道嗎，我認為接下來就是要重新訓練你的大腦，然後你得考驗自己。考驗這件事，人們可能在大學畢業後就很少經歷了，或許在職場升遷的過程中會有一些考驗，但這些都非常零散，對吧？
Which is bizarre to me. We spend so much of our youth being tested over and over and then all of a sudden it just ends and ends in a way that it really is detrimental to, I think, the continued development, psychological development of the individual, especially on an operational level. And that's why I just really one of the things I always stress when I work with teams is like, "Alright, what's your training regiment look like? What are the metrics that you're going to measure out, put or production with? How about how you test whether or not your people are doing the, to really genuinely represent the culture that you've established when they onboard a new client or when they're recruiting a new client or they're in a profile of new client, like, "What are those metrics look like?" And that's a real problem. Because I think the older we get, the less we actually want to be tested. And why is because our pride emerges at a pretty substantial level once we attain a certain level of success. So, you know, test yourself and that really helps determine of whether or not the training that you're conducting to embrace your fear is working. Because, you know, there's a great concept out there. It's called stress and occupation. And what we need to do is is when we learn something, we have to place it under stress.
這對我來說很詭異。我們年輕時不斷接受各種測試，然後突然間這一切就結束了，而且是以一種我認為對個人持續發展、心理成長相當不利的方式結束，特別是在實務層面上。這就是為什麼我在帶領團隊時總是強調：「好，你們的訓練計畫長什麼樣子？你們要用什麼指標來衡量產出或表現？你們要怎麼測試團隊成員是否真正體現了公司文化——無論是在接手新客戶、開發新客戶，或是面對新客戶檔案時？這些評估標準究竟是什麼？」這確實是個大問題。因為我發現隨著年紀增長，人們會越來越抗拒被檢驗。為什麼？因為當我們達到某種成就水平後，自尊心就會大幅膨脹。所以說，要持續測試自己，這才能真正判斷你為了擁抱恐懼而進行的訓練是否有效。 因為，你知道嗎？有個很棒的概念叫做「壓力與佔據」。而我們需要做的是，當我們學到某件事時，必須讓它承受壓力。
We call, you know, placing yourself on the Anville of life, right? Where you're going to apply that pressure and that heat and see whether or not, you know, when you take that blade off and you put it into the, you know, how you pull it out of the fire and you use it as it can break, as it can chip, as it can a shatter. And that's what testing does for us. And then the final one is to live with the courage knowing that fear is inescapable, that pretty much every significant decision in your life you're going to be confronted by this idea of fear, not idea, but it's a feeling. It's a deep, deep feeling of fear and do you possess the tools to really, you know, stand up for what you believe and push yourself forward, right? As you talk through that, the part that really struck me and I understand why it's step one is to recognize that fear is there and you can't just ignore it. One thing that I've noticed is there are some people and I immediately come to mind or delete athletes like Michael Jordan or Tom Brady or even Boogie Batz who I know you've worked with. When they're in a very stressful period and it's crunch time, you know, they thrive. Whereas a lot of others, they tighten up during those difficult periods. And I've heard you talk about this notion of restructuring our perspective of pain. Would you talk through that as it relates to high stress situations? Absolutely.
我們稱之為將自己置於人生的鐵砧上，對吧？在那裡你將施加壓力和熱度，看看當你取下那把刀，將它放入——你知道的——當你把它從火中取出並使用時，它是否會斷裂、崩缺或粉碎。這就是測試對我們的意義。而最後一點是帶著勇氣生活，明白恐懼是無可避免的，幾乎在你生命中的每一個重大決策面前，你都會面臨這種恐懼的概念——不是概念，而是一種感受。那是一種深深的、深深的恐懼感，而你是否有工具真正地，你知道的，為你所相信的站出來並推動自己前進，對吧？當你談到這一點時，真正打動我的部分——我也理解為什麼這是第一步——就是要認識到恐懼的存在，你不能只是忽視它。我注意到的一件事是，有些人——我立刻想到像麥可·喬丹、湯姆·布雷迪，甚至是與你合作過的布吉·巴茨這樣的精英運動員——當他們處於壓力極大的時期，關鍵時刻來臨時，你知道嗎，他們反而能蓬勃發展。 然而很多人在那些艱難時期會變得緊繃。我聽你談過重新建構我們對痛苦的看法這個概念。你能談談這在高壓情境下的應用嗎？當然。
And when COVID hit, you know, my business collapsed and I lost pretty much lost everything. I lost, I think it was like 15 events. I was scheduled to do speaking events. I lost. I was supposed to work with the Minnesota twins that year. I lost out of that. I was supposed to work with a Fortune 50 company to completely restructure their training profile. My podcast was doing great. I'm social media was exploding all this and then COVID hit and all went away.
當疫情爆發時，你知道的，我的事業垮了，幾乎失去了一切。我損失了，我想大概是 15 場活動。我原本排定的演講活動都沒了。我那年本來要跟明尼蘇達雙城隊合作，也泡湯了。我原本要幫一家財富 50 強企業徹底重整他們的培訓架構。我的播客做得很好，社群媒體也爆紅，這一切都在疫情來襲時化為烏有。
And, you know, that was debilitating. And it's through, you know, me being interested in, and I'd heard on Joe Rogan, I'd heard Dr. Jordan Peterson several times. I ended up discovering his pod, his old stuff, his original stuff that he was putting out. And he has this one show called restructuring your perceptions part two. And the way he distilled down the sequencing of meaning based on action effort or your deeds hit me in such a profound level that I was like, "Whoa, that's exactly what we do in special operations." Every day you're going in, you're going to look at a particular evolution that you're going to engage in, whether it's jumping out of a perfectly good airplane or, you know, putting on your breathing apparatus, your dragger, and you're going to go for diving some foreign harbor in the middle of the night and, you know, have cargo ships run over your head. You know, that's talked about fear. And so it's like, "But what do we do? We restructure the fear in a place well. I've already jumped out of an airplane 50 times before." So I know what to expect. I know what to power to prepare.
而且，你知道嗎，那真的讓人身心俱疲。但透過我個人的興趣，還有在喬·羅根節目上聽到喬丹·彼得森博士的分享好幾次，我最後發現了他的播客，他早期發佈的原始內容。他有一個節目叫做「重塑你的認知第二部分」。他將基於行動努力或行為的意義序列精煉出來的方式，對我產生了深刻的影響，讓我恍然大悟：「哇，這不就是我們在特種作戰中每天在做的事嗎？」每天你都要面對某個即將參與的演變，不管是從一架完好無缺的飛機上跳下來，或是戴上你的呼吸裝置、你的潛水裝備，然後在半夜潛入某個外國港口，還可能會有貨輪從你頭頂駛過。這些都是在談論恐懼。但我們怎麼做？我們將恐懼重新架構在一個妥善的位置。「我已經跳過 50 次飛機了」，所以我知道該期待什麼，也知道該如何做好準備。
I know what I needed to do in training. Same thing with that dive. You know, I might have already, you know, 400 hours underneath the water of combat diving. So as long as I have the right dive plan, my dive buddy's prepared, you know, I'm in good shape. I know what I'm doing. I've done the map studies. You know, all this, then going into it what it is. And I think that's what I really saw with some of the really great athletes that I worked with in particular,
我知道在訓練中該做什麼。那次潛水也是一樣。你知道嗎，我可能已經在水下進行了 400 個小時的戰鬥潛水訓練。所以只要我有正確的潛水計劃，我的潛伴也準備好了，我就沒問題。我知道自己在做什麼。我已經研究過地圖。你知道的，所有這些準備工作，然後實際去執行。我認為這正是我在一些合作過的頂尖運動員身上看到的特質，
Mookie, he was prepared. And he didn't rest on, you know, a lot of people will practice, they get it right, and then they move on. The elite performer, you know, practices until they never get it wrong again. That effort is perpetual in nature. And so that preparation, I think, is really the defining characteristic. And so the more prepared you are, the more reps you've done, it enables you to take that fear and shrink it down to, you know, what ultimately is the thing that gets most of us, which is the external response, right? Is that which is outside of our control? And then in that case, it's managing that. And I see so often high performers, that's the thing that just gets them. You've done the thousands and thousands and thousands and now, and by the way, that whole Malcolm Gladwell, that's that's complete bogus bull, 10,000 hours is ridiculous. It's absolutely just a ridiculous number. I mean, I, there's guys at seal team six or at Delta or at other Tier one units, they've trained way over 10 to hals and hours, right? And just you'll ask them, and they're like, I've shot 2 million rounds of ammunition, and I'm just starting to get good. And that's the mentality, right? That's the restructuring your perception. That somehow people get to a certain point over an aggregated sign of of of of feeling pain and the repetitions, and they like, oh, they have one larger success or one series of successes, and then they're like, oh, I'm good, man, I'm done, but the grace, it's learning to perform the basics as close to perfection as possible in perpetuity, right? And it's just going and going. And that way, when you're in fire, when you're operational, environment changes, it doesn't affect you. Like one of those common things that I ask advisors out there, as I, you know, how long have you been in the business? How long have you been in the business? 26 years. Was it anything like it is today when you started?
穆奇，他準備充分。而且他不會滿足於——你知道，很多人練習時，一旦做對了就會繼續前進。但頂尖的表現者，他們會一直練習到再也做錯為止。這種努力本質上是永無止境的。所以我認為，這種準備才是真正的關鍵特質。你準備得越充分，重複練習的次數越多，就越能將恐懼縮小到——你知道，最終困擾大多數人的其實是外在反應，對吧？就是那些我們無法控制的因素？在這種情況下，關鍵在於管理它。我經常看到高績效者就是被這一點擊垮。你已經練習了成千上萬次——順帶一提，馬爾科姆·格拉德威爾那套理論完全是胡說八道，一萬小時法則荒謬至極。那根本就是個可笑的數字。我是說，海豹六隊、三角洲部隊或其他一級特戰單位的隊員，他們的訓練時數早就遠遠超過一萬小時了，對吧？你去問他們，他們會說：「我打了兩百萬發子彈，才剛開始有點上手。」這就是他們的心態，懂嗎？ 這就是重塑你的認知。人們總是在累積的痛苦與重複中達到某個臨界點，然後突然有了某次重大成功或一連串的成功，就開始覺得「喔，我夠好了，老兄，我完成了」。但真正的優雅在於學會將基本功持續做到接近完美，對吧？就是不斷地前進再前進。這樣一來，當你身處火線、當作戰環境變化時，這些都不會影響你。就像我常問那些顧問的問題：「你在這行多久了？」「26 年。」「跟你剛入行時相比，現在的情況有任何相似之處嗎？」
There are some things that are timeless, but a lot of changes. And what are the things that are timeless? You know, core principles like, you know, it's important to be diversified. You know, markets are cyclical, they're volatile, there's a lot of unknowns. Those things are pretty timeless, and it's just, you know, a different day, you know, but the same principles often apply. And those principles are derivative of how you express that to the relationships that matter most to you, right?
有些東西是永恆不變的，但也有很多事物在改變。那麼哪些是恆久不變的呢？你知道的，核心原則像是分散投資很重要。市場具有周期性，波動劇烈，充滿未知數。這些道理基本上歷久彌新，只不過換了時空背景，但相同的原則往往依然適用。而這些原則衍生自你如何向對你最重要的人際關係傳達這些理念，對吧？
And so what is the core idea behind, you know, your profession is the quality and competency of that relationship. And the ability to deliver trust on a regular recurring basis. The person who trusts you is the person that will be able to reign in that fear, right? Alter their perception of, oh my God, the sky's falling, based on the report that you've spent years and years and years cultivating. Now the, the modalities, which, which you deliver that safety, deliver that consistency of all for sure, because markets are evolving and new products are evolving in different concepts and different levels of wealth, an opportunity to present with that. So, but at its core, right, it's you. And it's all the different reps you've done, the, the thousands of phone calls you've logged the different times and places in the volatility of those markets. How you see the specific reactions emotionally to those fluctuations. And you know, specifically at a handle that client in that moment, in that environment. And that's that's elite right there. The thing that strikes me with what you just talked about it a lot of it is confidence. So for the athlete, it's still confidence that comes from repeating that process. And when you're in a stressful environment, you have the confidence that you can fight through it. And that takes many, many hours and reps to do. The example that you just described is the client's having confidence in our approach, our strategy, etc. Because they've seen it, you know, time and time again. The other really amazing attribute to high performers is that when they do fail, they, they don't allow the failure to dominate their focus, right? They fail.
那麼，你職業背後的核心概念是什麼呢？就是那段關係的品質與能力。以及能夠持續穩定地傳遞信任的能力。信任你的人，就是能夠駕馭那份恐懼的人，對吧？根據你多年來精心建立的報告，改變他們那種「天啊，天要塌了」的認知。當然，你提供安全感、維持一致性的方式會隨著市場演變、新產品出現，以及不同財富水平和機會的變化而調整。但歸根究底，關鍵在於你本身。在於你累積的所有經驗，那些成千上萬的通話記錄，你在市場波動中經歷的不同時空背景。你如何看待人們對這些波動的具體情緒反應。更重要的是，你如何在當下那個環境中具體應對那位客戶。這正是頂尖之處。你剛才談到的內容讓我印象深刻的是，其中很大一部分關乎信心。 所以對運動員來說，信心依然來自於重複那個過程。當你處於壓力環境中時，你有信心能夠克服它。而這需要花費許多、許多的時間和重複練習才能做到。你剛才描述的例子是客戶對我們的方法、策略等有信心，因為他們已經一次又一次地見證過了。另一個高表現者的驚人特質是，當他們失敗時，他們不會讓失敗主導他們的注意力，對吧？他們會失敗。
They learn immediately from it. They adapt the failure, whatever the incremental is, valuation is, right, that little, that little thing. Well, this is what specifically calls that failure. Okay, get rid of the rest. That's what now I integrate. I go back to train with that failure. Now, integrated into my overall consciousness of the training profile. And then the next time I face it, oh, I know exactly what to do in this moment because I've already trained that out of it.
他們立即從中學習。他們調整失敗，無論那個增量是什麼，評估就是，對吧，那個小小的、小小的東西。好，這就是具體導致失敗的原因。好，把其他的都去掉。這就是我現在要整合的。我回去訓練時帶著那個失敗。現在，它已經整合到我訓練概況的整體意識中。然後下次我面對它時，哦，我知道在這一刻該做什麼，因為我已經訓練過如何擺脫它了。
Yeah, and you know that you just got a little bit better. Yes. Well, you do, but again, here's the other thing. You're only really now when you're on the battlefield, right? Like you can train and train and train and train, but the one thing. And that's why when people ask us, you know, what's the real difference between special operations and everything else? We train more than everybody else. We put ourselves in as many scenarios as humanly possible, you know, prior to, you know, the event.
是的，而且你知道自己又進步了一點。沒錯。不過，這裡還有另一件事要說。你真正了解自己的時候是在戰場上，對吧？你可以不斷訓練、訓練再訓練，但關鍵是...這也是為什麼當人們問我們，特種作戰和其他部隊真正的區別是什麼？我們比其他人訓練得更多。我們盡可能讓自己置身於各種可能的情境中，你知道的，在實際行動之前。
Like when you look at the, the bin Laden raid, you know, those guys at damn it, they hit a mock facility that they had built at a secret base. They hit that thing. It cracked as hitting it, like 150 plus times. Right? And it was so funny. One of the last ones. And a friend of mine that I had gone through how weak was, as things rob O'Neill and Rob was one of the team leaders that.
就像你看那次賓拉登突襲行動，那些傢伙在一個秘密基地搭建了模擬設施。他們反覆攻擊那個地方，演練了超過 150 次。對吧？最有趣的是最後幾次演練。我有個一起通過訓練的朋友羅伯·歐尼爾，他是其中一個小隊的隊長。
And he's like, all right, does anybody have any more ideas or or what we need to do? And so one of the junior guy on the team was like, yeah, what if the helicopter crashes? So he's like, Roger, right, we're going to practice helicopter crash. Well, what happened? The helicopter crashes. Now, any other time in event like that, it would be catastrophic for the psyche of the team and the individuals. But because they had rehearsed it because they had at a minimum restructured the perception of it to acknowledge it as a high possibility when it happened.
然後他就說，好吧，還有沒有人有其他想法或是我們需要做什麼？團隊裡一個資歷較淺的成員就說，嗯，如果直升機墜毀怎麼辦？他馬上回應，收到，那我們就來演練直升機墜毀。結果呢？直升機真的墜毀了。換作其他任何時候，這種事件對團隊和個人的心理都會是毀滅性的打擊。但正因為他們事先排練過，至少已經重新調整了對這件事的認知，將其視為極可能發生的情況，所以當事情真的發生時。
It was seamless what they did. And you know, they were able to conduct what I believe was one of the most successful operations in U.S. history because of the preparation, their professionalism and the recognition that in the midst of the failure, they didn't allow the failure to distract them in real time. They adapted and moved on to what was the preliminary plan was, wasn't affected. And I think a lot of time under those extreme environments, under stress, under whatever, the unknown is kind of hammering.
他們的行動流暢無阻。你知道嗎？正因為這樣的準備、他們的專業素養，以及在失敗當下不讓失敗干擾即時判斷的認知，他們得以執行我認為是美國史上最成功的行動之一。原先的主要計畫並未受到影響，他們隨即適應並繼續推進。我認為在那些極端環境下、承受壓力或面對未知持續衝擊的時刻，很多時候都是如此。
I call it the negative insurgency, right? But that external thing that's always looking to tear you away from your success. You know, when that hits you, if you allow that emotional tsunami to overwhelm you, then you're essentially your operationally, in effect, as a now you have to get someone else to come in and back to you. You can think of that as the unknown enemy, you know, that are off your radar. And I believe there are a lot of these risks in the world of investing particularly today. Let me ask you something about mental toughness and resilience.
我稱之為負面叛亂，對吧？但那個外在的東西總是試圖將你從成功中拉開。你知道，當它襲擊你時，如果你讓那股情緒海嘯淹沒你，那麼你實際上就處於運作上的無效狀態，現在你得找別人來支援你。你可以把它想像成未知的敵人，你知道的，那些不在你雷達上的。我相信在投資的世界裡，特別是在今天，存在著許多這樣的風險。讓我問你一些關於心理韌性和恢復力的問題。
As that's obviously important in the topics we've covered so far, but also in if you're running a business or you're trying to fight through a challenging market environment, are there any frameworks they use for making sound decisions and high stress or uncertain situations? I did this little experiment with the never-quit mindset where I used to have a real big podcast with Marcus LaTrell, the Loan survivor. And for three years, we went on this really fun adventure of interviewing people from all walks of life, you know, what their greatest never-quit story was. And like we interviewed, you know, Secretary Perry, we interviewed Mark Wahlberg, we interviewed Lance Armstrong,
正如這在我們目前討論的主題中顯然很重要，但同樣地，無論你是經營企業還是試圖在充滿挑戰的市場環境中奮鬥，他們是否有任何框架用於在高壓或不確定的情況下做出明智的決策？我曾經做過一個關於永不放棄心態的小實驗，當時我和《貸款倖存者》的馬庫斯·拉特雷爾一起主持了一個非常受歡迎的播客節目。三年來，我們進行了一段非常有趣的冒險之旅，採訪了各行各業的人，了解他們最偉大的永不放棄的故事。比如我們採訪了佩里部長，採訪了馬克·華伯格，還採訪了蘭斯·阿姆斯壯，
Diane and Iad, we swam from Cuba to Florida, 64 years old. We, you know, just some unbelievable guests that we had on and they told these remarkable stories. And then when COVID hit, you know, that idea of the never-quit mindset really kind of emerged, you know, because people were pretty emotionally distraught. And many people had their livelihoods, including me, destroyed as a result of that. And so, you know, I dug in and I went back and I reevaluated kind of all of those shows and tried to, you know, segment them into these core ideas, which ended up emerging from not only those, but also my experience, you know, in the teams and as an instructor on in the various places I've taught. And you know, what really kind of emerged was these core attributes, one was work ethic, right? People who seem to have a powerful work ethic when, you know, the proverbial, you know, excrement hits the fan, right? You know, a lot of people will stop, but other people will dig in and work.
黛安和艾德，我們從古巴游到佛羅里達，當時 64 歲。我們邀請了一些令人難以置信的來賓，他們分享了這些非凡的故事。然後當疫情爆發時，那種永不放棄的心態真的浮現了出來，因為人們當時情緒相當低落。包括我在內，許多人的生計都因此被摧毀。於是，我深入挖掘，回頭重新審視了所有那些節目，試著將它們分類成這些核心概念，這些概念不僅來自節目內容，也源自我在團隊中的經歷，以及我在各地擔任教官的經驗。而真正浮現的是這些核心特質，其中之一就是職業道德，對吧？當所謂的「糞」真的「擊中電扇」時，那些擁有強大職業道德的人會怎麼做？你知道，很多人會停下來，但有些人會堅持下去並繼續努力。
I want to place this, I see it quite a bit as I see it when, you know, people have a loved one die early or tragically, what do they do? They go back and they dig into work, right? They work through it, right? That's what that whole thing comes from, you know, just work through it. And I think that's a really interesting one. The other one is the idea of defiance, right? To defy that which you believe is trying to tear you down. It's kind of like the chip in your shoulder one and to find others to find concept. You know, the big one was really when people certain people who feel like their undervalued, right? When someone tells you, you stink, you're never going to make it, you're never going to do it. You're never like, I mean, if I had a dollar for everybody told me there was no way I was going to make it through the sealed training, you know, a big pretty wealthy man because of where I was coming from out of college and like people couldn't believe it. They're like, you're going to do what? Never going to happen.
我想指出這一點，我經常看到這種情況，當人們失去摯愛、對方又走得早或遭遇不幸時，他們會怎麼做？他們會埋頭投入工作，對吧？用工作來度過難關，就是這麼回事。我覺得這現象很有意思。另一個關鍵是反抗的心態，懂嗎？去對抗那些你認為打壓你的事物。這就像心裡憋著一股勁，同時尋找同類、尋找共鳴。你知道最典型的例子嗎？就是當某些人覺得自己被低估的時候。當有人對你說「你爛透了」「你永遠不會成功」「你根本做不到」——老天，要是每次有人斷言我絕對通不過海豹部隊訓練時我就能賺一塊錢，我早發財了。畢竟我大學畢業時的背景讓人難以置信，他們都說：「你要去幹嘛？根本不可能！」
And so that defiance thing, they can drive you for certain people, right? Some people that tear you down but for others they can drive you. That's right. And several, you know, I've got several close close friends that are really successful and that that's the thing that's their motivation every day, that defiance. The other one is kind of this aha moment. Like, it's this revelatory experience, kind of where you get to the bottom of that sensation of failure fear and you realize, I'm not doing this anymore.
所以那種反抗心理，對某些人來說可以驅動他們前進，對吧？有些人會打擊你，但對另一些人來說，這反而能激勵他們。沒錯。我有好幾位非常親近的朋友都相當成功，而那種反抗心理正是他們每天的動力來源。另一個關鍵時刻則是所謂的「頓悟時刻」。就像是一種啟示性的體驗，當你觸及到失敗恐懼的底層時，突然意識到：我不要再這樣下去了。
I'm done and you just change and then you allow that bottom sensation or, you know, that awakening moment with that revelatory consciousness, right? That thing that life altering experience or event and then that just provokes profound focus and purpose and people's lives and then they chase that purpose for a period of a very strong focus during that, I call it the focus obsession. And then the final one is really this idea of your, it's like the love of your life. Like people are have a real strong sense of gratitude where they come from their families, inspire them deeply. They love what they do, right? Those people that you just like, whoa, that person is really full, right?
我受夠了，然後你就改變了。你讓那種谷底的感受，或者說那種覺醒時刻伴隨著啟示般的意識，對吧？那種改變人生的經歷或事件，接著就會激發出強烈的專注與人生目標。人們會在一段時間內以極度專注的狀態追逐那個目標，我稱之為「專注迷戀期」。最後一種情況，其實就像是對生命至愛的感覺。有些人對自己的出身懷抱強烈感恩，家人深深激勵著他們。他們熱愛自己的工作，對吧？就是那些讓你忍不住驚嘆「哇，這個人活得真充實」的人。
Their their cup is full and it's infectious. Like, man, I want someone what they got and they just are able to structure that perception to realize that life is a bit with suffering and pain and it's just part of it, but it's what's going to make me more appreciative and grateful and my desire when I sacrifice for others. And that was really the core and that people's willingness to sacrifice for others. So, you know, I think within that never quit moment, those are some attributes that I really believe are profound. Another big topic that you brought up earlier is teamwork and I guess part of that is leadership. Obviously, you need this for for business. You could think of a portfolio as having a team of components that each have a role to play in a diversified portfolio.
他們的心靈是充實的，而且這種狀態極具感染力。就像，老兄，我真希望自己也能擁有他們所擁有的，而他們就是能夠建構出這樣的認知：生命本就伴隨著苦難與痛苦，這不過是其中的一部分，但正是這些將使我更加懂得感恩與珍惜，當我為他人犧牲時，這也正是我的渴望所在。而這正是核心所在——人們願意為他人犧牲的意願。所以，你知道嗎，我認為在那些永不放棄的時刻裡，這些特質確實是我深信不疑且意義深遠的。你之前提到的另一個重要話題是團隊合作，我想其中一部分也涉及領導力。顯然，無論是在商場上，你都需要這些。你可以把一個投資組合想像成由一群各司其職的成員組成的團隊，在多元化的投資組合中各自扮演著不同的角色。
But as a seal, you literally put your life in the hands of your team. What would you say makes a great team and why is the team so critical for success? Team is everything. I mean, it's the essence of all success within every human being, whether that success is Mackevellian or the success is divine and nature. Right? Team orientation is the grand power behind all societies and civilizations and cultures. And so, like, how do you cultivate the team orientation at the highest level? I believe that there's a sequence that forms great culture.
但身為海豹隊員，你實質上是將性命託付給團隊。你認為什麼造就了優秀的團隊？為何團隊對成功如此關鍵？團隊就是一切。我的意思是，無論是馬基維利式的成功，還是神聖自然的成就，團隊精神都是所有人類成功的本質。對吧？團隊導向是所有社會、文明與文化的強大後盾。那麼，該如何培養最高層級的團隊導向？我相信偉大文化的形成有其特定序列。
But once you're committed to that team, it's four things. It's a high level of commitment, Mike Monsor willing to die first teammates. Training is going through the program, no matter how hard or how long it takes. Right? And then once you have that training, that reinforces your ability to communicate at the highest level. That very honest focus, direct approach to communication and those strong teams is a profoundly distinguishing characteristic.
但當你全心投入團隊後，關鍵在四件事：高度承諾——像麥克·蒙索爾那樣願意為隊友率先赴死；堅持訓練——無論過程多艱難耗時都要完成計畫；而當你具備這種訓練後，它會強化你進行最高層級溝通的能力。那種極度誠實、聚焦且直接的溝通方式，正是強大團隊最鮮明的特質。
The greatest teams I've ever worked with are the teams that communicate in the most sincere and honest ways. And then finally, the leadership portion of that. And there's really four core ideas behind the leadership development, first and foremost, you've got to be willing to be cold wet and sandy with everybody with you. Now, in our training apparatus, that's legit. Our officers go through the same training as us. And in many times, they get even a greater beat down than we do. They take more heat because the responsibilities are greater. The other is a grander sense of situational awareness.
我所合作過最優秀的團隊，都是那些能以最真誠坦率方式溝通的團隊。最後是領導力的部分，領導力發展背後有四個核心理念：首先，你必須願意與身邊每個人一起承受寒冷、潮濕與沙塵。在我們的訓練體系中，這是真實寫照——軍官們和我們接受同樣訓練，很多時候他們承受的壓力甚至比我們更大，因為責任更重。另一點是更高層次的「情境感知能力」。
Right? I always see what you always hear on big leaders is they try and parse out the critical aspects that they need to focus on. Well, the reality is that if your junior man doesn't feel worthy, that you're interested in what they're doing, then that's going to really have an impact negatively on your organization. But their biggest one is those junior managers, the junior managers are the key to the success of every small business, big business, whatever. And if the investment in those people is not dialed in, that's where you start having a really significant trend.
對吧？我們常聽到大領導們說要專注在關鍵事務上，但現實是：如果基層人員感受不到你對他們工作的重視，這將對組織產生負面影響。最關鍵的是那些基層管理者——無論是小企業或大企業，基層管理者都是成功的關鍵。如果對這些人的投資不到位，就會開始出現嚴重的負面趨勢。
So be situationally aware of the different levels of input and influence in your organization, that's huge. And then within those lower levels, if there's no concept that there's a responsibility within them to lead, right? And that's the way you look at the representation of your organization. Like you are a leader. You lead in the community, you lead around. And then you're training those people to become a leader. Even if that means they go out and start their own business and say, "Hey, thank you so much." That's the ultimate thing because you've influenced them and given them enough of these ideas. And if you do it the right way, you pay them well, you give them the growth trajectory, you show them the path. They will become as loyal as anybody else. And then finally, as you talk before, Alex, the ability to analyze in the appropriate time what the actual battlefield looks like and then to take risks. And that's the number one thing that I I see more often than not is leaders unwilling to take risks because in most of that has to do with the lack of work they've done in developing their team. They just don't, they don't trust their team. They don't trust that.
所以要對組織中不同層級的投入與影響力保持情境意識，這非常重要。接著在那些較低層級中，如果他們沒有意識到自己肩負著領導責任，對吧？這就是你審視組織代表性的方式。就像你身為領導者，在社群中帶領眾人，在各處發揮領導力。然後你正在訓練那些人成為領導者——即使這意味著他們可能出去創立自己的事業，並對你說：「嘿，非常感謝你。」這才是最極致的成就，因為你已經影響了他們，並給予他們足夠的這些理念。如果你用正確的方式去做，給予他們優渥報酬、提供成長軌跡、為他們指明道路，他們將會變得和其他人一樣忠誠。最後，就像 Alex 你之前提到的，關鍵在於能夠在適當時間分析實際戰場樣貌，然後勇於承擔風險。這正是我最常看到的情況——領導者往往不願意冒險，而這多半是因為他們在團隊培養方面投入不足。他們就是...就是不信任自己的團隊。他們不相信這一點。
When if I'm going to take this huge risk, expand into another city or state or whatever, if I don't believe in my team, then I'm not going to take that risk. And that's, that's, I think, the biggest challenge is taking smart, dialed and risk as a result of the strength of your team beneath you. >> Yeah, and a lot of it is self-reinforcing. Meaning you have the reps, you have the training, you have the tests to make sure the training is working and then you make the improvements and you do all that well, then you build confidence in yourself and your role as part of the team and confidence in the team itself. And then you're more likely to fight through painful experiences and I guess that reinforces this self-confidence.
如果我打算冒這個巨大的風險，擴展到另一個城市或州或其他地方，如果我不相信我的團隊，那我就不會冒這個險。我認為最大的挑戰在於，根據你團隊的實力來承擔明智、可控的風險。>> 是的，很多時候這是自我強化的。意思是說，你有足夠的練習、訓練和測試來確保訓練有效，然後你做出改進，把這一切都做好，這樣你就能對自己、對你在團隊中的角色以及對團隊本身建立起信心。然後你更有可能挺過痛苦的經歷，我想這會進一步強化這種自信。
So let's talk about peak performance. What does it take to achieve peak performance and how do science and psychology play role and what do you think is more important? >> First and foremost, the skill set needs to be identified. What is the specific skill set that I want to be illid on? Now, obviously every single thing can be distilled down and that's what we did. When if I'm teaching introduction, the tactical pistol, there are eight core fundamentals. When you're static on a flat range facing a target, a paper target, right? These eight core things.
那麼我們來談談巔峰表現。要達到巔峰表現需要什麼？科學和心理學在其中扮演什麼角色？你認為哪個更重要？ >> 首先，必須明確技能組。我想要精通的具體技能組是什麼？顯然，每件事都可以被分解，而我們正是這麼做的。比如當我在教授戰術手槍入門課程時，有八個核心基礎要領。當你靜止站在平面靶場面對一個紙靶時，對吧？就是這八個核心要素。
So each one of those eight things need to be trained and replicated, iterated, over, you know, let's call it 500 to 1000 rounds. Then once I see proficiency there, now I'll put in the next thing, which is basic movement, facing movement, you know, face laugh, face right, face the other way doing a full turn around, then I add in moving walking left, walking right, right? And so what you're doing is you're stacking the things that are measurable. And that's the way that first and foremost, you have to identify the skill set specifically and then break out one of the things that can be measured in that experience. The other is the recognition of now when you establish how you're going to train that,
所以這八項中的每一項都需要經過訓練、重複演練、反覆操作，大概要進行 500 到 1000 次。當我看到熟練度達標後，才會加入下一個項目，也就是基本移動——面向移動，比如轉向笑臉方向、轉向右邊、或是完全轉身面向另一側。接著我再加入左右行走的動作，對吧？這樣做的目的是將可量化的要素層層堆疊。首要之務就是必須明確識別出技能組的具體內容，然後從中拆解出能夠在該經驗中量化的部分。另一個關鍵在於，當你確立訓練方法後，要能辨識出......
right? So often people want to put a finite timeline on that. Well, for everybody's going to train at a different rate. Now what you can do is the more dialed in your training regiment is, you could get a greater group of people up the speed faster, but they have to be willing to experience the pain at the higher level. What people need to understand is that most of most everybody, there's a, there's, we call it the 40% rule. It was made famous by David Goggins book he did with what's his name, Jesse Eisenman I think, whether we were spent 30 days with him.
對吧？人們常常想為這件事設定一個明確的時間表。但其實每個人的訓練進度都不一樣。你能做的是，訓練計畫越精準，就能讓更多人更快跟上進度，但他們必須願意承受更高強度的痛苦。大家需要明白的是，對大多數人來說——我們稱之為 40%法則——這個概念因為大衛·戈金斯和傑西·艾森曼（我記得是這個名字）合寫的書而廣為人知，我們當時和他相處了 30 天。
And every human being gives an input, well, they have about 40% more to give. Right? There's, there's 40% more effort they can give. Now if you're just getting 15% of a person's total capability, you're in a problem. And so it really what it becomes down to is, how do you, how do you force that behavioral shift in its conditioning? Right? It's the recognition, this is the standard, and this is the standard of the expectation of your organization. We expect you to be willing to at least give us this on this many tough, but so often people don't lay that out as they're bringing people in. They want to establish it correctly in the right culture. And so that becomes a difficult aspect. All right. So now you've got people that are committed, they're willing to go the extra mile. They want to push themselves heavily against the particular skill set. Now it's like, all right, how do we know, you know,
而每個人所付出的投入，其實他們還有約 40%的潛力可以發揮，對吧？他們還能再多付出 40%的努力。如果你只獲得一個人 15%的能力，那你就遇到問題了。所以這最終歸結為：你如何促使這種行為轉變發生？關鍵在於認知——這就是標準，這就是組織對你的期望標準。我們期望你至少願意在艱難時刻付出這麼多，但太多時候人們在招募新人時並沒有明確傳達這一點。他們希望能在正確的文化中建立這種標準，這就變成了一個難題。好了，現在你有一群願意付出額外努力、渴望突破自我極限的人。接下來問題就變成：我們該如何...
establishing the correct training and then and then giving them the opportunity in a real world environment to test that knowledge base and then to do so over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. And I think that's where you can begin to really, really advance your organization. The hardest, though, like I said, is every human being has this variable of how they perceive pain and then what they're willing, how hard they're willing to push themselves in order to not overcome it, but like we continuously say, to restructure their perception of it. So it's a motivational tool instead of an impediment. And I suppose peak performance doesn't have a finish line. You can always get there 100%.
建立正確的訓練模式，然後在真實環境中給予他們機會去驗證這些知識基礎，接著一遍又一遍、不斷重複這個過程。我認為這正是能真正推動組織進步的關鍵。但最困難的部分，就像我說的，在於每個人對痛苦的感知程度不同，以及他們願意付出多少努力——不是為了克服痛苦，而是像我們不斷強調的，要重新建構他們對痛苦的認知。這樣一來，痛苦反而能成為激勵工具，而非阻礙。我想，巔峰表現是沒有終點的，你永遠都能達到百分之百的狀態。
Right. And so how important is embracing failure and learning from mistakes for a continuous growth? It's absolutely the most important aspect of training. If you're not built, I see all these continuing education things and, you know, my old man was an attorney and my god of this, I forget like it seemed like every other quarter he was going to some is the state planning conference in Orlando or Talahas, wherever it was in order to keep his credentials up to speed or some tax thing or whatever. And it was always like you show up and you sit there, you know, click your boxes and you're done with it. Well, this is your profession.
沒錯。那麼，擁抱失敗並從錯誤中學習對於持續成長有多重要？這絕對是訓練中最關鍵的部分。如果你沒有這種心態，我看到所有這些持續教育的東西，你知道，我父親是律師，天啊，我忘了具體是什麼，但感覺好像每過一季他就要去參加州裡的什麼規劃會議，在奧蘭多或塔拉哈西之類的地方，為了保持他的資格更新或是什麼稅務相關的東西。總是這樣，你出現、坐在那裡，打勾完成就結束了。但這可是你的職業啊。
Is it enhancing you? Are you making yourself better? Are you, you know, are you really pushing yourself? And that becomes the real challenge. I think for people is, you know, is that ability to like to push yourselves when you don't feel like pushing yourself. And that's what that's what Pete performance says. It's the recognized that we have these, you know, these platos in our lives. Well, the better you get the platos aren't bigger.
這有讓你提升嗎？你有讓自己變得更好嗎？你真的是在挑戰自己嗎？這才是真正的挑戰。我認為對人們來說，關鍵在於那種即使不想也要推動自己的能力。這就是所謂的高績效表現。要認識到我們生活中會有這些停滯期。但當你變得越好，這些停滯期反而會變得更短。
They're teeny. They're like, oh, I improved by one half measurement of a metric that I used to measure against this particular still said and to be good with that. And that's really what it becomes. It's those, it's those small bit of skill little pieces that you begin to sharpen the edge with with the more dedication you have to seeking out that information. And that's probably what separates those who are elite performers from those who are just merely good. Yeah, you know, I think there's always the age-old argument that talent plays a role too, right?
它們很微小。就像是，喔，我在某個特定指標上進步了半個單位，而這個指標是我用來衡量自己表現的，然後就對此感到滿意。這真的就是它的本質。就是那些，就是那些小小的技能片段，你開始用更多的專注去磨利這些邊緣，越是投入去尋找那些資訊。而這可能就是區分頂尖表現者與僅僅只是不錯的人的關鍵。是啊，你知道，我認為總是有那個古老的爭論，說天賦也扮演了一個角色，對吧？
Are you intellectually capable? Are you physically capable? Are you emotionally capable? Are you spiritually capable? And I think that does play role in specific things. But life is this great bell curve, right? And there's the majority people who live within the bell curve of that capability. And so if you're in that bell curve and you don't, there isn't something that precludes you from some advancement, then yeah, it's the willingness to expose yourself to that pain day and in day out and that and to recognize that the pain is the purpose, right? That's the pathway. And then, you know, like I'm about to California right now and my wife just ran her first marathon. You know, she trained and floored on the flat and you know, out here the whole thing was, you know, hills and elevation gained a loss and you know, it was 85 degrees when she ran and floored and it was, you know, when the day she started it was 42 degrees out, never going over 55. Then it was rainy and no sun.
你的智力足夠嗎？你的體能足夠嗎？你的情緒足夠堅強嗎？你的精神足夠強大嗎？我認為這些確實在某些特定事物上扮演重要角色。但人生就像一條巨大的鐘形曲線，對吧？大多數人都生活在這條能力曲線的範圍內。所以如果你身處這條曲線之中，且沒有什麼阻礙你前進的因素，那麼關鍵就在於你是否願意日復一日地承受那種痛苦，並且認知到痛苦本身就是目的，對吧？那就是通往成功的途徑。就像我現在人在加州，我太太剛跑完她人生第一場馬拉松。你知道，她平時都在平地上訓練，但這次比賽全程都是上下坡地形，而且她跑步當天氣溫高達華氏 85 度（註：約攝氏 29 度）——但訓練期間氣溫從來沒超過華氏 55 度（註：約攝氏 13 度），整天陰雨綿綿不見陽光。
And so the reality is the operational environment's going to change. You're going to evolve, right through your age, maturity, wisdom, put the construct of high peak performance, doesn't change. It's your willingness to train and train and train and then the willingness to put yourself on that battlefield and take those big risks. And I suppose in the world of investing or business training is less physical and more learning and studying and talking to people who know more than you do and learning from your mistakes and so on. I don't know, man, I think you look at the science that's out there now and with the Huberman lab and there's so much science that indicates sleep performance, you're intake, what you're putting in your body for your cognitive acuity, right? I mean, sleep, there are more advisors I have met that do not sleep well and a lot of times, a lot of that has to do with their physical health. So if your physical health is poor, you're not sleeping, that means your cognitive abilities are going to suffer. Certainly your emotional instability heightens and now the sudden you're under the rest and stress. That's the core physically, it's where everything begins. So there's no shortage of fine dining and experiences that are more conducive to comfort and financial services industry then really putting yourself out on that handle. But yeah, I think education is massive but like what aspects of education? I often ask advisors, you know, how many books about interrogation have you read?
因此現實是，作戰環境會不斷變化。你會隨著年齡、成熟度和智慧而成長，但追求巔峰表現的架構不會改變。關鍵在於你是否願意不斷訓練、再訓練，然後勇於踏上戰場承擔巨大風險。我想在投資或商業領域，訓練可能較少體能層面，更多是學習、研究、向比你懂更多的人請教，以及從錯誤中汲取教訓等等。老實說，看看現在 Huberman 實驗室等機構提出的科學研究，有大量證據顯示睡眠品質、攝取物質對認知敏銳度的影響。我遇過太多睡眠品質不佳的顧問，這往往與他們的生理健康狀況有關。當身體狀況不佳、睡眠不足時，認知能力必然下降，情緒不穩定性也會加劇，這時你就處於疲勞與壓力之下。身體狀態是根本，一切由此開始。 所以高檔餐飲和那些更適合舒適與金融服務業的體驗並不缺乏，反而是真正讓自己投入其中比較困難。不過，我認為教育非常重要，但具體是教育的哪些方面呢？我經常問顧問們，你知道自己讀過多少本關於審訊的書嗎？
You know, how many books about a profile in psychological profiling? Have you read or forensic psychological forensics, right? Or listening courses or whatever it might be, in much less understanding the markets at a deep, deep level and being an expert in your field? Because you know, complacency kills for sure. I mean, we would see that quite a bit as guys got older and they became more reticent in their knowledge base and their skill sets, you know, but what changes? weapon systems change, communications change, certainly what we've seen in the Ukraine, Russia or and and the war in Gaza, you know, we've seen a radical shift and what the battlefield looks like that's going to translate. So the next kinetic war are people say. So what are we doing? We're a bathing that trainings change all the training profiles where we're changing. I mean, they're training and trench warfare again. They're training and drone warfare. They're training and electronic weaponry. So, you know, it really is if you're sedentary, you're complacent, they're the way I express it to a lot of teams out there as your enemy, which is your competitor, they're adapting right now. They're training hard. And my sense is there's an under estimation of the importance of psychology and all of this because there's relationships you're dealing with people and and so studying how that works from a science standpoint is probably very important as well. 100%. You asked me in the beginning it would be in a team guy was about and was is it more physical or psychological? I mean, obviously once you once you can do a thousand pushups in a day, once you can run a four mile time to run on the beach and the prerequisite timing you're there, right? Another than some type of injury, you just keep getting better and better, you get stronger faster, all that. Well, the same is true with all these other skill sets, right? I mean, it's it's really about that dedication and what you're trying to accomplish. So, I think the psychology of human performance, I mean, obviously that's what I've spent the last 30 years really trying to understand on all these different planes, you know, and I've had this really unique experience of, you know, not only with in special operations, but you know, in blackwater at the CIA, working with football teams and, you know, this year I worked with the Penn State Men's hockey team who went to their first final for us and four, I worked with, you know, the entire Penn State athletic department and all of their student athletes at the beginning of the year I'm learning. I'm like, this year I learned about hockey, but that's like, oh my god, okay, what are the finer points? And, you know, the three or four dialogues I had with, you know, coach Gaddaas Gipafore, I spoke to the team, you know, was essential in teaching, or what's unique about this particular skill set and this sport, this idea behind hockey. And so it really is a never-ending process of understanding, right, not only your own individual performance metrics and training, but really how it integrates into the battlefield that you're engaged in. So let's close with two topics that I know you commonly emphasize purpose and adaptability, both are very relevance and the world of investing. Obviously, you need, for purpose, you need to know what your north star is, what direction are you growing, and then for adaptability, in a markets are always changing, and the investing is changing, so you need to be able to adapt. So on purpose, how do you find and maintain a sense of purpose, and why are strong values so important for long-term success?
你知道，市面上有多少本關於心理側寫的書籍？你有讀過犯罪心理學或法醫心理學的書嗎？或者聽過相關課程之類的？但這些都遠遠比不上對市場有極其深刻的理解，並成為你所在領域的專家。因為你知道，自滿絕對會害死人。我的意思是，我們經常看到這種情況，隨著年紀增長，人們在知識基礎和技能上變得越來越保守，但改變的是什麼？武器系統在變，通訊方式在變，我們在烏克蘭、俄羅斯以及加薩戰爭中看到的，戰場樣貌已經發生劇烈變化，這將會延續下去。所以有人說下一場實體戰爭會是什麼樣子？我們在做什麼？我們正在徹底改變訓練模式，所有的訓練內容都在調整。他們重新訓練壕溝戰，訓練無人機作戰，訓練電子武器作戰。所以說，如果你停滯不前、安於現狀，用我常對許多團隊說的話就是——你的敵人，也就是你的競爭對手，他們正在適應，他們正在刻苦訓練。 而我感覺人們低估了心理學在這一切中的重要性，因為你處理的是人際關係，所以從科學角度研究其運作方式可能也非常重要。百分之百同意。你一開始問我團隊成員的特質是什麼，是更偏向體能還是心理層面？我是說，顯然一旦你能一天做一千下伏地挺身，一旦你能在沙灘上以規定時間跑完四英里，你就達到門檻了對吧？除非受傷，否則你就是不斷進步，變得更強更快，諸如此類。其實其他技能也是如此，對吧？我的意思是，這真的關乎那份投入和你想要達成的目標。 所以，我認為人類表現的心理學，我的意思是，顯然這是我過去 30 年來真正試圖在各個不同層面上理解的東西，你知道嗎，我有過這些非常獨特的經歷，不僅是在特種作戰中，還有在黑水公司、中央情報局，與美式足球隊合作，以及今年我與賓州州立大學男子冰球隊合作，他們首次打進了決賽，我還與整個賓州州立大學體育部門及所有學生運動員在年初時一起學習。我就像是在學習，今年我學到了關於冰球的知識，但這就像是，天啊，好吧，那些細微的關鍵點是什麼？而且，你知道嗎，我與教練 Gaddaas Gipafore 進行的三、四次對話，我對球隊的講話，對於教學或這項特定技能和這項運動——冰球背後的獨特理念至關重要。因此，這真的是一個永無止境的理解過程，對吧，不僅僅是你個人的表現指標和訓練，還有它如何融入你所參與的戰場中。 那麼讓我們以兩個你經常強調的主題作結：目標與適應力，這兩者在投資領域中都極為重要。顯然，就目標而言，你需要清楚自己的北極星是什麼、你成長的方向為何；而就適應力來說，市場總是在變化，投資方式也不斷演進，因此你必須能夠隨機應變。那麼關於目標，你如何找到並保持目標感？為什麼堅定的價值觀對長期成功如此關鍵？
That's the ultimate question right there, right? I mean, dating back thousands of years, who am I and why am I here? I think fundamentally just asking yourselves that question more often, I try and have the individual clients that I work with when I give them their inventory, which is their initial three-page questionnaire. The last question is what's your purpose? And if they're not sure answer this, who am I, why am I here, and that will get us going? I just don't think people do it enough. I ask this question more than any question I ask, what I'm giving lectures or speeches or presentations, is, "All right, what's your purpose?" and, you know, the top four answers I get are pretty straightforward, one, my family, you know, be a better father, husband, all that. The other is is altruistic in nature. I want to leave the world a better place. I want to have an impact, that whole thing, and then, which is strong to understand, because this generation that's coming up, they're much more integrated with altruism than they are within that kind of traditional estimation of purpose and ambition. Right?
這就是最根本的問題了，對吧？我的意思是，追溯到幾千年前，我是誰？我為什麼在這裡？我認為從根本上來說，只要更常問自己這個問題就好。我試著讓每位合作的客戶在填寫他們的三頁初始問卷時，最後一個問題都是：你的目的是什麼？如果他們不確定答案，就回答「我是誰？我為什麼在這裡？」這樣就能讓我們開始思考。我只是覺得人們做得不夠。在我進行講座、演講或簡報時，我問這個問題的次數比其他任何問題都多：「好吧，你的目的是什麼？」而你知道嗎，我最常得到的四個答案都相當直接：第一，我的家人，像是成為更好的父親、丈夫等等。第二種本質上是利他主義的，像是我想讓世界變得更美好、我想產生影響之類的。這很值得理解，因為這一代年輕人比起傳統對目的和野心的定義，他們更傾向於與利他主義結合。對吧？
The other is, is faith, faith, or spirituality. I want to serve God or serve, you know, I want to be a spiritual person, I want to be a good person. And then the final one is I don't know. And I think a lot more people struggle with that than they care to admit. You know, within your business, I mean, what is your purpose? Your purpose is to provide the absolute best financial advice and service that you can do your clients. Well, that's great. And what is that? And most teams, good teams can write that out.
另一個是信仰，信仰或靈性。我想侍奉上帝或服務，你知道的，我想成為一個有靈性的人，我想成為一個好人。最後一個是「我不知道」。我認為有更多人為此掙扎，只是不願意承認。在你的業務中，你的目的是什麼？你的目的是為客戶提供絕對最好的財務建議和服務。這很棒。但那是什麼？大多數優秀的團隊都能寫出來。
They can show, they can show me. Right? Here is the profile of how I do that step by step, one, two, three, four. And the more clear that is, the better you are. And that's why I find it fascinating when I ask this question just to the audience or to individuals like what your purpose they tell me these things. Then I say, well, what is your step by step process? You'd say, I want to be a great father. Okay. What does that look like? What does that look like daily? What does that look like?
他們可以展示給我看，對吧？這就是我如何一步一步做到這一點的輪廓，一、二、三、四。這個輪廓越清晰，你就越好。這就是為什麼當我向觀眾或個人問這個問題時，他們告訴我這些事情，我覺得很有趣。然後我說，那麼你的逐步過程是什麼？你會說，我想成為一個好父親。好的。那看起來是什麼樣子？每天看起來是什麼樣子？那看起來是什麼樣子？
You know, weekly, monthly. Like how often you talk about virtue or or the other, you know, the morals or, you know, these ideas. Like how often do you sit your child down in front of a white board or, you know, on a piece of paper with a journal and say, son or for me, you know, my daughters, you know, I want you to explain to me in detail what you believe in integrity means. And then I listen and then all the sudden I pull out, you know, the definition, then I say, all right, this is how I see it. This is how I see it relative to you.
你知道的，每週、每月。就像你談論美德或其他，你知道的，道德或這些觀念的頻率。比如你多久會讓你的孩子坐在白板前，或者，你知道的，拿著一本日記本，然後說：兒子（對我來說是女兒們），我要你詳細解釋你認為正直是什麼意思。然後我聽著，接著突然拿出定義，說：好，這是我理解的，這是我相對於你的理解。這是應該如何看待它。而我會這樣教導。
This is how you should see it. And I teach that. John and I sit down pretty regularly with our kids once a month at least and say, all right, this is what we're not seeing. This is what needs to be adapted. This is what needs to readjust it. Then we do understand this. No, okay. Well, let's teach what this is. But so purpose is a derivative of clarity, right?
這就是你應該如何看待它。而我會這樣教導。約翰和我相當定期地，至少每個月一次，坐下來跟孩子們說：好，這是我們沒看到的。這是需要調整的。這是需要重新校正的。然後我們確實理解這點。不，好吧。那我們來教這個是什麼。但所以，目的其實是清晰度的衍生物，對吧？
When you know that feeling inside you, but then people feel something, but then they don't place and what we talked about or that real definitive step by step process of how to choose it. Now, the other thing that I think is much more frustrating for people and this is kind of a tough pill to smile is that the purpose that you have at 14 is going to be the different than at 24, 34, 44, certainly 54, or certainly 54, or certain 64. And, you know, to recognize that in particular in your industry, people's purpose will change from the moment they come and start working with you tell the moment they're retiring and moving into that, you know, philanthropic stage of their lives and do you really understand what their purpose is? And if you're good, they can come to you with that grand idea and you can help them drill down. It's very specifically on what that is. And by teaching them the expertise you have, the markets, the expertise you have and developing the appropriate portfolio and how to manage the volatility, that's what reinforces it goes back to that. The ultimate purpose, which is that we are the relationships that we have in our life, our our strong, the fruitful, and they give us the meeting that we ultimately really what have. As environments change, whether on the battlefield or in investing, some principles remain constant while others need to adapt. And my experience to real challenge is knowing where to draw that line. On the investing side, many react to market volatility instead of recognizing that downturns can at reveal weaknesses in their core principles. For example, if you're truly well-diversified, you don't need to be as reactive. How do you approach thing committed to your core principles while remaining adaptable in other areas? That's like a two-part question for y'all, right? It's one you and you've been doing this 26 years and so you've gone through the highs and lows, whereas I think prior to there's a lot of people in the end, it's what the average age of the advisor right now is what 61 years old, right? And half of those advisors will be gone in the next 10 years, what is the other crazy, it's something like $35 trillion in wealth and it's going to change hands from the baby boomers into these next millenials and Gen Zs. And so are you prepared to deal with that that group? Are you prepared to engage them? Do you have the training for to bring them on board? Have you actively started to talk to them? We have one of the people that are on part of this advisor consulting group and we have some of the best people in industry on a variety, but this woman on our team Jackie Wilkie is like she does that, she gives you a full script on how to engage your clients on the legacy people, how to keep them apart, how to bring them in. And so now you're talking generational transition for people committed to you, like that's a critical understanding and what to do on how to develop that. You know, and then young people coming into the industry, the biggest advice I have for them is, is go find gentlemen like you and ask them to be your mentor and they don't have to be your peers or the people you're on the same team list. It can be somebody you met or you know or someone whatever, but find those mentors and be educated because the real world stuff, right? The real world after-actions reports, the real world experiences, those who've gone through what 87 savings and loans stuff, who went through what the dot com bubble in 2000 or you know the catastrophic circumstances of '08, '09, right? And then COVID, people who've managed that, the wealth of information and you all is staggering. So seek them out and learn from that. And that's the other thing. It's like, don't allow your pride or your fear to get the way of going out there and asking for help and get people that are experienced to teach you and train you what they know. Oh, Dave, this has been an enlightening conversation. I feel like I learned a lot and I appreciate you taking the time. Thank you, Alex. So much for having me on Good Luck, God bless you. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed this episode.
當你內心深處感受到那種感覺，但其他人卻有所感受卻無法確切定位時，我們談論的正是這種明確的逐步選擇過程。現在，我認為更令人沮喪的是——這確實是個難以吞嚥的苦果——你在 14 歲時的目標，會與 24 歲、34 歲、44 歲時截然不同，當然 54 歲或 64 歲時更是如此。要知道，特別是在你所處的行業中，人們的目標從加入團隊開始工作那一刻起，直到退休進入人生慈善階段都會不斷變化。你真的了解他們的目標是什麼嗎？如果你夠專業，當他們帶著宏偉構想來找你時，你就能協助他們深入剖析，精準定位目標核心。透過傳授你對市場的專業知識、建構合適的投資組合，以及管理波動性的方法，這一切最終都會回歸強化目標的本質。 最終的目的在於，我們人生中建立的關係——那些堅實、豐碩的連結——正是我們真正擁有的珍貴資產。無論戰場或投資環境如何變遷，有些原則恆久不變，有些則需與時俱進。而我面臨的真正挑戰，在於如何準確劃分這兩者的界線。就投資而言，多數人對市場波動過度反應，卻未意識到低迷時期反而能暴露核心原則的弱點。舉例來說，若你真正做到分散投資，就無需如此頻繁應變。該如何堅守核心原則，同時在其他層面保持彈性？這其實是道雙重考題，對吧？畢竟你已深耕這行 26 年，歷經市場起伏，而現在業界顧問平均年齡約 61 歲，多數人恐怕還沒經歷過完整週期。 而在接下來的 10 年裡，這些顧問中有一半將會消失，更瘋狂的是，約有 35 兆美元的財富將從嬰兒潮世代轉移到千禧世代和 Z 世代手中。那麼，你準備好應對這群人了嗎？你準備好與他們互動了嗎？你是否具備將他們納入客戶群的訓練？你是否已經開始主動與他們對話？我們團隊中有一位來自顧問諮詢小組的成員，我們擁有業內各領域最頂尖的人才，而這位 Jackie Wilkie 女士正是其中之一，她會提供完整的腳本，教你如何與既有客戶互動、如何區隔他們，以及如何將新世代納入客戶群。現在你談論的是對你忠誠客戶的世代交替，這是一個關鍵的認知，以及如何發展這方面的策略。至於剛進入這個行業的年輕人，我給他們最大的建議是：去找像你這樣的紳士，請他們擔任你的導師，他們不一定要是你的同儕或同團隊的成員。 這可以是任何你遇過或認識的人，但務必找到那些導師並接受教導，因為真實世界的經驗至關重要，對吧？那些真實世界的行動後報告、親身經歷，那些經歷過 87 家儲貸機構危機的人，或是挺過 2000 年網路泡沫，甚至 08、09 年金融風暴的過來人，更別說後來的新冠疫情——這些人的經驗與知識寶庫簡直令人驚嘆。所以主動尋找他們並從中學習吧。還有一點很重要：別讓自尊或恐懼阻礙你向外求助，讓那些有經驗的人教你他們所知道的。噢，Dave，這次對話真的讓我茅塞頓開，我覺得收穫良多，非常感謝你撥冗分享。謝謝你，Alex，很榮幸能上節目。祝你好運，願上帝保佑你。感謝收聽，希望您喜歡本集內容。
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